Well Kaylee, voting for government to force us to be moral is actually Satan’s plan, right? Ohhhh, that’s only if it’s actually helping people. NM

Kevin Kevin… we’ve all called people names and we’ve all threatened an idiot with a punch. What we haven’t done is made a horses ass out of ourselves on national television for the last 4 years, spouting racist dogwhistles and inciting violence among white supremacist groups. One thing Biden has never done is ask Democrats in state governments to overturn the will of the people when they voted in a presidential election for a Republican… because he isn’t a fascist. Your attacks on Biden are juvenile and ignorant. I can give you a long list of real criticisms of Joe Biden… you just didn’t hit any of them from what I see.

Let’s just leave climate change off the table for a second. Our population is exploding, the oceans are dying, and 1.5 soccer fields worth of the Amazon Rainforest is being cleared every minute. We are killing this planet. You are just an individual conditioned by your society. If you wanted to learn, you could. You don’t want to learn. It’s too uncomfortable for you. I’m not going to worry about you. I’ll modify my statement. You aren’t killing anyone. Industry is. You just aren’t doing anything about it.

If anything is justified, it’s taking down the system that’s responsible for destroying life on this planet. When our Founders signed the Declaration of Independence, they did the same thing. When governments fail, it’s the right of the people to abolish that government. Regardless, it’s going to collapse on its own because it’s unsustainable.

If you want to continue living in a lie, I really don’t have anything further to say to you at this time. If you want to take the red pill, give me a call.

Bill Clinton? Lol the one lie he’s famous for, which was about his personal sex life, got him impeached.

J.B., Jesus busted out a whip one time, so sometimes a little passion is a good thing. You started by saying I was coveting your property, which is quite an accusation, and explains why I described your view as self-righteous. Maybe I am human too, and I react sometimes instead of just stating my views. I humbly acknowledge I can do better there and am will.

I will add that Article 1, Section 8 says Congress can tax and spend for the general welfare. You’ll notice though that most welfare programs are actually legislated and governed by the states, and just subsidized by the federal money. The Supreme Court agrees this is all acceptible.

The Mormon principles you mention are separate from the legal issue, but are equally important. In a recent statement about providing healthcare to needy families, they state both the importance of self reliance, and the need of helping families who don’t have access to adequate health care. That asked for thoughtful approach:

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-encourages-principled-approach-health-care-coverage-needy-utahns

You are worried about division and then come here and make a comment about Mormon Democrats being Nazi Jews? Now you are just trolling.

You are talking about two different things… laissez fair individualism and federalism. Under our constitution, state governments can tax as much and spend as much as they want on anything they want. Federal powers are more limited, but they too have power to tax and spend on the general welfare.

But like so many other things, the water we drink and air we breath cannot be protected in a piecemeal fashion. Child labor cannot be regulated state by state. Competition breeds a race to the bottom.

Bourgeoise individualism is naive… much like Marxism. It relies on an absurd notion of an invisible hand guiding the morals of the economy.

Society requires regulations and investments in its people for the purposes of its own success and security. We have elections to decide what the proper balance is.

None of this has anything to do with the gospel, other than that each of us has the “free will” to decide with our own conscience how our country should treat the least of these. We have a collective voice and will as much as we have individual needs and will. Our collective voice has the right to choose how we will act to better our collective state.

If you believe that Donald Trump represents your religious beliefs, I would be horrified. You would be hard pressed to find a flawless representation of your own subjective view of your religious values in a binary political system such as ours. And if it’s same-sex marriage or abortion that you object to, there are certainly plausible and compelling cases to be made that letting individuals make those decisions for themselves rather than prohibiting them by law are perfectly congruent with one’s Mormon beliefs. Mitt Romney has articulated such views as have many other Mormons. Voting for Hillary Clinton would not have required suspending any Mormon beliefs… and in fact I believe it would have been more consistent with them in many respects.

Republicans routinely trample the 4th and 14th Amendments of the Constitution. I’m more interested in social justice than your freedom to exploit people.

One of few who pay taxes? There are plenty of regressive taxes that wealthier people avoid. Just keeping it real. Oh, my taxes have been used by conservatives to fund wars I didn’t approve of, so I get your point. But that is just the consequences of elections. Our representatives choose what they believe will help society. Preventing the spread of STDs and reducing abortions and unwanted pregnancy saves the tax payers. Sitting back and yammering about personal responsibility won’t accomplish this.

As far as your professional view of the Constitution goes, where did you study law? This debate has already been had out by the experts and the Supreme Court. Funding education is accomplished by Article 1, Section 8. Congress has power to lay and collect taxes for the general welfare.

So we can debate here in comments all day… but suffice it to say that one place to start is in trying to understand the relevant points of view… something I find so few people try to do. I was a conservative most of my life. I dedicated several years of my life to studying politics and found that understanding different perspectives gave me a much greater grasp of politics. That’s what it’s all about… perspectives. And despite the issues I took with yours, I respect your perspective and thank you for sharing it.

While some of these comments come from a sincere perspective, I believe they are essentially strawman arguments. The Gospel does not teach that compulsory anything from society is evil. The analogies to Satan in the preexisitence to free breakfasts at school are utterly preposterous.

No liberal believes that govt force in enforcement of the tax code which is distributed by a popularly elected body of representatives BTW, is a subsitute for a willing heart. No one believes compulsory charity will save you. That is not the point. Your willingness to see those tax dollars go to help bring minimal sustenance is probably a sign of good things though. That’s an individual thing and it’s on you.

Providing minimal needs to our citizenry is a form of investment and arguably domestic security, and it’s decided on by our elected representatives. Calling it plunder is asinine. Look up social contract.

Hey Kevin Wally – Is that what “a lot of people are saying”?

JB, a simple answer. If I vote for elected representatives who support a nation that doesn’t leave the poor behind, and provides healthcare for all, much like education already is, than I have the pure love of Christ. If a nation has a majority of people who elect that representative, that nation has it, despite the crabapples who voted against them. :)

The truth is, we are all forced to pay taxes that pay for wars, roads, and even corporate subsidies, among many other things. There is no principle in the gospel against this.

And listen, you can believe this right or that right is God given all you want. Have fun with that. But it isn’t a legal right until the community agrees on it. That is the reality. And at the moment, healthcare is only a conceptual right… Perhaps as God given as life, since it is health care that often saves life.

Hope my two cents helped.

So what JB is saying is that ignorance is an excuse for being a law breaker/ not recognizing the govt’s authority. For example, Article 1 gives Congress authority to regulate interstate commerce. So to me it’s perfectly reasonable to accept that Congress then has the authority to create the EPA, because it is by commerce that most pollutants enter our water, air, etc., or that any pollution affects commerce. So either way, Congress has clear authority to create the EPA to enforce the law. But Because JB doesn’t understand this simple concept, and the fact that Article 3 gives jurisdiction to the Supreme Court to make those determinations, he thinks he’s above the law. What a rationalization for sin! Unbelievable.

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Statan’s plan is being self righteous and stingy… that’s the conservative ideology in a nutshell.

@seastorm, do you feel the Lord celebrates inequality?

Jacob S – I don’t think there is any basis whatsoever to the idea that everything not publicly criticized by the Church that has ever come out of the brethrens’ mouths is “gospel truth” or should be treated as such. They very rarely ever make those things public. Furthermore, I don’t think it’s of sound reason to conclude that ‘if it’s on lds.org, it must be true.’ Wow

Does a mandate for fire sprinklers, overtime pay, social security and every other mandate violate his free agency? Of course not… That’s the price of doing business.

Great comments everyone. My father gave me Niebuhr’s book as a gift one year, and ever since I have understood exactly why my father has been such a moderate his whole life. I think a lot more Republicans were years ago. Unfortunately, it seems as though they are a dying breed, and are losing way to stiff-necked ideology of extreme individualism.

Mormon politics guru @McAffee writes about religious freedom, founding fathers, and whether non-religious are moral: http://www.mormonliberals.org/mormon_church_on_citizenship_and_founding_fathers_intent?recruiter_id=2